michael99000
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The borgata in AC recently installed a progressive jackpot tied to all the tables in their carnival game pit. The bet is for 5 card hands. So In 3 card poker for example, it's your 3 cards plus the dealer deals out a special 2 card hand separate which everyone betting uses. In 4 card poker it's all 5 of your cards, etc etc.
The progressive bet is anywhere from $1 to $5 and the prizes are multiplied based on how much you choose to bet.
My question is, currently the 'JACKPOT' prize, which is won by having a royal flush in the suit hearts, is up to $937,000. That jackpot is based on a $5 bet of course.
How high would that jackpot have to climb in order for it to become a player edge wager?
If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask. I'm at the borgata 3-4 nights a week so I'm pretty well versed on the goings on there. This progressive jackpot is
Made up of 3 card poker, 4 card poker, let it ride, and 5 card hi lo. I believe they are letting Caribbean stud continue to have its own separate progressive
The progressive bet is anywhere from $1 to $5 and the prizes are multiplied based on how much you choose to bet.
My question is, currently the 'JACKPOT' prize, which is won by having a royal flush in the suit hearts, is up to $937,000. That jackpot is based on a $5 bet of course.
How high would that jackpot have to climb in order for it to become a player edge wager?
If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask. I'm at the borgata 3-4 nights a week so I'm pretty well versed on the goings on there. This progressive jackpot is
Made up of 3 card poker, 4 card poker, let it ride, and 5 card hi lo. I believe they are letting Caribbean stud continue to have its own separate progressive
michael99000
And unfortunately they removed the MINI ROYAL 100-1 payout without making flushes 4-1 like they once were.
tringlomane
It depends on the other payouts. If the heart royal is the only payout, for a $5 wager, it is terrible.
michael99000
The jackpot was started at a million. Someone hit a straight flush with a $5 bet which paid $50k.
tringlomane
The jackpot was started at a million. Someone hit a straight flush with a $5 bet which paid $50k.
Ok, so that's 10000 for 1...we need the complete list of payouts to determine the return of the bet. And be aware that if that the initial bet is always taken away from you (likely) that's a 'for 1' payout, not a 'to 1' payout.
And how did the jackpot start at a million if the Royal in hearts is only $937,000?
michael99000
Ok, so that's 10000 for 1...we need the complete list of payouts to determine the return of the bet. And be aware that if that the initial bet is always taken away from you (likely) that's a 'for 1' payout, not a 'to 1' payout.
And how did the jackpot start at a million if the Royal in hearts is only $937,000?
And how did the jackpot start at a million if the Royal in hearts is only $937,000?
It's a progressive jackpot. It started at a million, someone won 50k, others have won smaller prizes on full houses and 4 of a kinds etc, people keep paying into it..so the total is now
At 937k.
And when we are talking about 10,000 to 1 payouts does whether or not you get your 5 bucks back really matter? You don't, so that means the str flush paid 9999 to 1.
rdw4potus
Are you sure they take the smaller prize payments out of the jackpot? That's very unusual. And to have the win rate exceed the collection rate is very strange as well.'So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened.' - Maurice Clarett
Boney526
It's a progressive jackpot. It started at a million, someone won 50k, others have won smaller prizes on full houses and 4 of a kinds etc, people keep paying into it..so the total is now
At 937k.
And when we are talking about 10,000 to 1 payouts does whether or not you get your 5 bucks back really matter? You don't, so that means the str flush paid 9999 to 1.
At 937k.
And when we are talking about 10,000 to 1 payouts does whether or not you get your 5 bucks back really matter? You don't, so that means the str flush paid 9999 to 1.
It matters a lot when some of the bets don't pay off something around 10000 to 1.
2 to 1 is twice the value of 2 for 1.
BTW, if you don't post the complete payouts nobody can really help you out with this.
Boney526
Are you sure they take the smaller prize payments out of the jackpot? That's very unusual. And to have the win rate exceed the collection rate is very strange as well.
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Yes, it'd be really weird if they are taking small prizes out of the fund. Seriously weird, and probably not a good way to run a progressive. Maybe the top 4 hands being Str. Flush, Royal and Royal in a specific suit, makes sense.)
I mean it's not the most likely thing (for the win rate to exceed collections) but if it just started and somebody got pretty lucky early on it makes sense.
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Mosca
We were at Borgata a couple weeks ago. the new bet is confusing, and no one seems to like it. Few players are playing it. The general consensus is, 'If we don't play it, it will go away.'
When I sat down at my first table, that's what I said to the dealer. He laughed, the other players at the table laughed and nodded. The dealer then tried talking the bet up, but I think he was being watched. Later on, at a different table, another dealer told me that none of them like it, that it is confusing to them as well, and it slows down the games and causes a lot of procedural errors.
It seems that you don't place a bet, but rather you buy a bank of bets and then make your bets from that bank. so you might buy 20 bets. Then every time you decide to take a chance on the progressive, you push the button to bet $1-$5 on the outcome, and your bank drops by that amount. There is a little counter showing how much you bet, and how much you have. In two days, I think I saw one player making that bet, at a table I wasn't on. No one made it anywhere I was playing.
One thing, though, there's a lot of investment in new felt, so it will get a few months of trial. But I think it's a dud.
BTW, Let It Ride isn't in the pot, neither is Caribbean Stud. I'm not sure about 5 Card Hi-Lo, I've never sat down there. But best I could tell it is 3 Card and 4 Card only.
When I sat down at my first table, that's what I said to the dealer. He laughed, the other players at the table laughed and nodded. The dealer then tried talking the bet up, but I think he was being watched. Later on, at a different table, another dealer told me that none of them like it, that it is confusing to them as well, and it slows down the games and causes a lot of procedural errors.
It seems that you don't place a bet, but rather you buy a bank of bets and then make your bets from that bank. so you might buy 20 bets. Then every time you decide to take a chance on the progressive, you push the button to bet $1-$5 on the outcome, and your bank drops by that amount. There is a little counter showing how much you bet, and how much you have. In two days, I think I saw one player making that bet, at a table I wasn't on. No one made it anywhere I was playing.
One thing, though, there's a lot of investment in new felt, so it will get a few months of trial. But I think it's a dud.
BTW, Let It Ride isn't in the pot, neither is Caribbean Stud. I'm not sure about 5 Card Hi-Lo, I've never sat down there. But best I could tell it is 3 Card and 4 Card only.
In a court decision that has set likely set a legal precedent going forward, poker professional, Phil Ivey, was ordered to pay back $10 million dollars he won in Atlantic City’s Borgata Casino back in 2012. Ivey and his partner were using a technique called edge-sorting to gain an edge against the casino.
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What is Edge-Sorting?
Edge-sorting is when a player determines the value of a card that is face-down by observing and then exploiting inconsistencies based on how the cards are cut. The player can’t alter the cards himself, (that would be illegal and he or she would face prison time) but can take advantage if the casino is not watching them carefully and inherent inconsistencies in the deck emerge.
Ivey’s Edge
Ivey sat with Cheng Yin Sun four times in 2012 at Borgata’s baccarat tables where he employed his edge-sorting technique. He won $9.6 million playing that game and another $504,000 playing craps. He was ordered the pay the full amount of both wins back to the casino.
Ivey and his partner didn’t just sit down at a baccarat table and begin to play. They had a few requests, firstly, that the game is played with Gemaco cards. Second, an automatic shuffler must be used and third, that the dealer speaks Mandarin Chinese.
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These requests, in other games, such as blackjack or carnival games, like Three Card Poker, Let It Ride, and others would have been major warning signs for a potential advantage player. However, in baccarat, untraditional requests are rather common.
The Casino Can Say No
Let’s be clear about Ivey’s requests – they’re entirely optional to the casino management at the Borgata. If they decide to break protocol and do these a different way – that’s on them. At the time, they felt like accommodating Ivey’s wishes made sense.
Maybe they knew he was a big gambler who liked to bet huge and was soft action. However, to be truthful, it doesn’t matter the reason that they accommodated Ivey’s requests. They did, and they could have told him to go some other place in town if they felt uneasy about his play.
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Ivey’s partner, Sun, could see the inconsistencies in the cards and would ask the dealer to rotate a card with higher value, allowing the card to distinguishable the next time it came around. Again, something the casino management could have refused.
Then, the use of the automatic shuffler, once again, requested by Ivey, helped keep the orientation of the cards in tack. Just another request, that they could have turned down.
The Borgata took the gamble that Ivey and Sun didn’t have an edge and weren’t using advantage play.
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That’s a gamble they lost. No one put a gun to their head and forced them to take Ivey’s action. They had every opportunity to refuse or spot the suspicious play, but they failed to do so before they were down big.
Ivey “Broke Contract”
U.S. District Judge Noel Hillman ruled in October before the amount owed back to the Borgata was announced that Ivey and Sun “breached their contract” with the casino, but didn’t commit fraud. Again, they didn’t commit fraud or do anything criminal, but they broke some mystical “contract” with the casino.
The ruling stands that they violated the state’s Casino Controls Act, which prohibits the marking of cards. Except, that Ivey and Sun didn’t mark any cards. They only benefited off the casino’s mistakes.
The original complaint also stated that Ivey used a “cheating device,” which, was, get this, the automatic shuffler. Yes, the casino’s own automatic shuffler which Ivey or Sun never altered, was the device he was using to cheat the house.
Maurice “Mac” VerStandig, an East Coast-based attorney and expert on gaming law, wrote a piece in April 2014 that impressively broke the case and stated this in regards to the casino’s automatic shuffler being named a “cheating device.”
“Admittedly, I am not a judge, nor am I a New Jersey lawyer (though I work with many of them at Offit Kurman), but I cannot reason how a casino’s own automatic shuffler can be deemed a “cheating device” without making a mockery of either the gaming industry, the legal profession, or both. This is tantamount to a Yankees pitcher crying foul when a line drive is hit back at his chest — the medical staff may prove momentarily sympathetic, but an umpire is almost certain to just let out a chuckle and direct the next batter into the box.”
Yeah, that about says it all.
Legal Precedent
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There hasn’t been a high-profile case on edge-sorting in U.S. courts, and this one has set a legal precedent, at least, in the state of New Jersey and perhaps nationally. This isn’t Ivey’s, nor Sun’s first run with a case like this, however.
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Ivey and Sun won £7.8 from a United Kingdom casino, called Crockford’s Casino in London in 2012 as well. They played, basically the same game, Punto Banco, which operates almost identically to baccarat.
The pair never saw the amount they won, despite the casino promising them that they would wire their winnings to them. Ivey and Sun did get his £1-million-dollar stake back that he received when he arrived at the casino.
Ivey sued the casino but lost his first case. He got an appeal heard again by a London High Court, and their decision was handed down this past November that he once again had lost. He won’t see any of the money he won in London and may not see his Borgata money either.
Ivey has appealed the decision by the U.S. District Judge in the Borgata case, and we’re hoping he comes out ahead, not only for his sake, but for the industry’s integrity.
This isn’t case of loaded dice at a blackjack game or a slot jackpot going off in error – the floor watched him play all night, and they were asleep at the wheel. He didn’t break any laws, and he didn’t break any of the casino’s rules. I hope he gets to keep his rightful winnings.